Margaret Atwood questions Narges Mohammadi about the reality of Iranian prisons in a conversation with TIME magazine
Narges Mohammadi’s 21-sentence suspension ends tomorrow, and she is forced to return to prison on December 25. In her final conversation before her return, she shared how Iranian women are courageously fighting against oppression and responded to Margaret Atwood’s questions in a powerful TIME x PEN America dialogue.
Margaret Atwood asked Narges Mohammadi about the similarities between her book The Handmaid’s Tale and the harsh realities faced by women in Iran, and Narges provided insightful answers, offering a glimpse into the ongoing struggle for freedom and rights.
Here is an excerpt from their historic dialogue on Women’s Rights & Ending Gender Apartheid Worldwide:
Narges Mohammadi
When I was in Qarchak prison I could read some parts of your book but couldn’t finish as I had to leave Qarchak and was transferred to Evin prison and in Evin we didn’t have a handmaid’s tale book so it was left unfinished.
Margaret Atwood
Oh, well, well, shall I give away the ending? Yes. At the ending, um, of The Handmaid’s Tale, she seems to be either being arrested or escaping, and we don’t know which, but then there’s a historical note at the end, and it’s 250 years later, and there is no more Giliard regime.
Narges Mohammadi
When Margaret Atwood heard about the “Woman, Life, Freedom” movement, perhaps the future she once imagined came into focus—mirroring what has unfolded in Iran. Maybe she can envision the future of a nation shaped by its struggles since after the Islamic Republic revolution.
Margaret Atwood
I was looking at the “woman life freedom” when, when it was at its height, it was remarkable. And, um, I was amazed that they were getting away with it without, you know, total repression. And everyone, and I, I think it’s because there were so many people involved, like huge numbers. And I’m wondering what is happening now with that movement?
Narges Mohammadi
I see this change as a positive one. Specifically regarding the issue of forced hijab, the change brought about by the “Woman, Life, Freedom” movement in Iranian society is remarkable. If we had tried to achieve this through traditional methods—such as religious, political, sociological, or women’s rights discussions—it might have taken far longer to reach this level of progress. The “Woman, Life, Freedom” movement has effectively ended debates around the forced hijab and marked a significant and transformative step forward.
I’m not saying this only about the government. The issue of forced hijab was deeply rooted in various layers of society and among the people. While many wanted the freedom to remove their scarves, the issue remained unresolved within families, especially in more religious segments of society. However, it now seems that this issue is largely resolved. Even among religious families and women who wear the chador, there is growing opposition to forced hijab. This represents a monumental step forward.
Margaret Atwood
Well, that is quite remarkable. So we, if we, if we put ideology to the side and look just at power, the regime felt its power was threatened, and therefore it would be wise of them to make some concessions regardless of what they thought. Because I believe that, um, theocratic regimes like this, that half of them actually don’t even believe, um, what, what they say. They believe that it’s a matter of convenience for them and a way of keeping power
Narges Mohammadi
I want to bring up another issue I’ve observed in Evin Prison recently. As you mentioned in your book, one of the methods used against these women is transferring them to psychiatric hospitals like “Amin Abad,” where individuals with mental health issues are kept. In Amin Abad, these healthy activists are subjected to severe false treatments—they are given heavy medications intended for those with severe mental illnesses, injected with powerful drugs, and even subjected to electric shocks. I’ve witnessed a specific case of this, and if you’re interested, I can share more details.
Margaret Atwood
This is a very Soviet Union. These, these, um, hospitalization and, and, and medication. They used to do that. Who knows, they probably still are. Uh, and, and this kind of treatment was not confined to Iran.
Narges Mohammadi
Many women in solitary confinement are unfortunately pushed to this point by their interrogators. I’ve witnessed this many times—women who told me that before their imprisonment, they were healthy and had never taken any medication, not even a single pill. Yet, after spending 2-3 months in solitary confinement, they were forced to take pills. Over time, they became dependent on these psychiatric drugs. They couldn’t sleep without them and would become extremely nervous and agitated if they didn’t have them.
Narges Mohammadi
This method is known as white torture, and I wrote a book with the same title, White Torture. It is an extremely brutal technique that relies on psychological manipulation and brainwashing to achieve its results.
Narges Mohammadi
I think the story of The Handmaid’s Tale is quite familiar to the people of Iran. I know many young Iranians have been watching the Handmaid’s Tale series, and it has become very popular among them. I’ve also heard that many performances during Iranian protests abroad have incorporated imagery and symbols from the series in solidarity. People immediately recognize these references when they see them—it’s very well-known.
Margaret Atwood
Yes, I’ve, I’ve heard that a lot. But what really surprises me is that they would even have access to it, because surely the regime would wish to ban this. Um, I, I was very surprised when it was translated. I thought, why are they allowing this? Well, of course they’re allowing it because it’s about the United States. Look how bad the United States. It’s, uh, uh,
Narges Mohammadi
I believe The Handmaid’s Tale is an eternal work, especially if we understand and accept the idea that when women lose control over fundamental aspects of their lives—such as their clothing, bodies, and choices—through anti-women laws, it paves the way for oppressive regimes to take hold. When 50% of a society is subjected to such oppression, whether through forced hijab, clothing restrictions, or mandated ways of living, this control spreads to the rest of the population. Once oppression permeates an entire society, dictatorship becomes entrenched.
I also believe this book, much like George Orwell’s 1984, will remain a timeless work of literature, continuing to offer new insights and warnings in different eras.
Margaret Atwood
Well, we would hope not, because if it remains relevant, then it’s because the situation remains unequal and oppressive to women. So when I wrote it, I thought, perhaps this book will become obsolete. Perhaps it will no longer, um, apply to any real world situation. But the opposite has happened, um, particularly in the United States. When I wrote the book, some people said, don’t be silly. Uh, we are a liberal democracy. Things like that can’t happen here. Uh, and now they are happening there too, not everywhere in the United States, but in some states of the United States, uh, this kind of, of total control of, of women’s, uh, particularly their reproduction, that is already happening,
Narges Mohammadi
This is exactly why I’ve written so many letters about this issue. I believe one solution is to criminalize gender apartheid within the United Nations. This could help.
Margaret Atwood
Yes. Well, we must begin with a very simple statement, which is women are human beings
Narges Mohammadi
I want to add one point about The Handmaid’s Tale. In a society where women cannot control their bodies or their clothing and are denied their basic rights, I believe love and kindness will eventually fade. I don’t think any woman can truly love someone who forces her to wear specific clothing or dictates how she should live. Even if love exists initially, over time, as her needs are oppressed and ignored, it will wither. As Margaret Atwood mentioned earlier, when we are not recognized as human beings, love will fade into a distant dream. Love cannot endure in such conditions. I was constantly concerned about love while reading this book, because in a society where women are controlled and oppressed, no genuine love can exist. It was clear to me from the book that love dies in such societies.
Margaret Atwood
Let us say, um, I’ll, I’ll say, say what I said earlier, that that any resistance movement against a totalitarian regime, that, that emphasizes in particular control of, um, young women’s bodies, nobody’s gonna be too concerned about controlling my body. I have to say <laugh> 85. Mm-hmm. Um, so in such a regime, there are always men who are against the regime too. And such regimes also kill men. So any resistance movement that I have looked at has always contained men as well as women.
Margaret Atwood
Women, I had everybody in mind. So some people in the United States try to get out of it by saying, oh, well, the Handmaid’s Tale is only about Islamic countries. They cannot get out of it that way.
Narges Mohammadi
I have a question for Mrs. Atwood: Do you attribute this role solely to religion, or do you believe other ideologies or forms of profiteering can have the same effect on women? Are there other elements, such as specific ideologies or the interests of certain groups, that can also play a role in this?
Margaret Atwood
Certainly. Um, It’s a question of using religion as an instrument. So, in my view, the people in charge of Gilead in my book are not really Christian, because they are not living in accordance with the, uh, central tenants of, of their supposed religion. So I think people get a hold of religions in some countries and use them to inflict power. But this has not been confined to regimes that were religious. The French Republic, for instance, was not religious at all. Um, they did away with Christianity. They killed, uh, religious people. Uh, they tried to substitute, some of them tried to substitute of sort of religion called the cult of the Supreme being, because they felt that it was, it would be immoral for people not to believe in an afterlife. Uh, but they, they were explicitly anti-religious, and they were invoking something called natural law. Okay. Uh, so there’s always some authority that is being referred to in order to inflict power on people, but it’s not always a standard religion.
Narges Mohammadi
What reminds me most of Iran in this book are the executions—both during the Woman, Life, Freedom movement and in the 1980s in Iran. We’ve witnessed numerous cases of executions, forced hijab, and the criminalization of women’s desires. I want to address a specific case regarding this. In 2010, when I was sent to Zanjan Prison, there were three women in our ward who had been sentenced to execution for engaging in sexual relationships outside of marriage. When I returned to the same prison in 2019, years later, there were 16 women facing execution for the same reason.
This was largely because women are denied the right to divorce. As you may remember from the book, the lack of divorce rights places women in a difficult situation. The absence of divorce rights in Iran is directly contributing to the rise in executions. As a result, women engage in relationships outside of marriage, and the Islamic Republic punishes them with stoning to death, which is often later changed to a hanging execution sentence.
Margaret Atwood
Yes. Well, that’s, um, part of the patriarchal playbook. Uh, and, and that is the fear that your, uh, spouse will have a child who is not yours. Okay. So, although, uh, babies are valued, it has to be the right kind of baby. And that is not confined to or around, it’s, it’s been a motif in human society for a very long time.
Narges Mohammadi
I want to add something to what Mrs. Atwood said about how regimes are afraid of women. From our experience in Iran, I believe there’s another reason for this fear, particularly when considering why the Islamic Republic implemented the forced hijab after the 1979 revolution. When I reflect on the reasons behind this, I realize that after the revolution, the Islamic Republic was focused on consolidating its power and silencing any opposition. Forced hijab was one of the ways the regime controlled and oppressed women.
Women are an undeniable part of society, present in every household, on the streets, and in many other places. The image of women in black chadors and maghnaes became the symbol of the regime’s oppression. Step by step, the people began to recognize this as a sign of dominance and control, allowing the Islamic Republic to establish itself.
Narges Mohammadi
It seems that the Islamic Republic doesn’t truly care about religion, as it tries to portray. The regime isn’t concerned about the chastity of women; the forced hijab was solely about maintaining power. It was all about control and dominance, not religious values.
Margaret Atwood
And it’s not the first time in human history that clothing has been used as a means of social control.
Narges Mohammadi
What this regime did to women was deceptive. In the name of chastity and protecting women, they trapped them in a cycle of oppression and domination. They pretended to uphold religious values and claimed their actions were for the sake of religion, but in reality, they didn’t believe in any of it. They used women as a means to an end. The Islamic Republic was driven solely by a desire for dominance, and in my opinion, it deceived Iranian society—lying about its true intentions. Islamic Republic is not smart, they are deceivers.
Margaret Atwood
Yeah. So that is what the people in Gilead do too. That is what the regime does. And they, um, don’t permit women to read anymore, partly because they would read the supposed foundational book of the regime, namely the Bible, and find things in it that are contrary to what the regime is doing. Uh, so the other thing about people is they like to be told they’re good. People like to be told that they are virtuous and good. And then you tell women that they are virtuous and good if they conform to this, uh, clothing law, and they’re bad if they don’t.
Margaret Atwood
And the other thing that they will be told is, um, we value you. Uh, we want to protect you. And this is part of our protecting you, um, from the, from the evil of Badman. Sound familiar? And this
Narges Mohammadi
These regimes are, in general, liars. I want the word liar to be used to describe such governments because after the Islamic Revolution, they claimed that wearing the headscarf was for women’s own safety. They said, “We want to support and protect you. Your safety is our main concern. We want to make sure you’re not harassed or raped.” But what actually happened, especially in recent years during the 2022 Woman, Life, Freedom movement, was the complete opposite. I witnessed many women being harassed, abused, and tortured—both in prisons and police vans, even during transport. Physical and sexual harassment, including rape, occurred. I am currently writing a book about these experiences.
Narges Mohammadi
I want to share an example from 22 Dec 2019. When I was protesting inside prison against the mass killings during the Bloody Aban movement in 2019, along with four of my cellmates, we gathered in the prison authorities’ office to show our anger and solidarity with those being killed outside. The authorities tricked me, separating me from the others and taking me out of the office. All the male guards, particularly the head of Evin prison, then physically attacked me. They grabbed me violently, touching every part of my body, and dragged me around. During the attack, my clothes were ripped, my headscarf fell off, and my hijab was ruined. My vest was torn from my body as they assaulted me like wild animals hunting their prey.
What made me most furious wasn’t the repeated beatings—it was the hypocrisy. They banned us even from shaking hands with a man, controlling every aspect of our lives. Yet they, themselves, could touch and violate my body however they pleased. I had huge marks of their hands on my breast—bruises from their savage brutality. They physically assaulted me.
Margaret Atwood
Of course. Uh, yes. Another, um, way of controlling people is sexual. And, uh, if you look particularly at, at wars, uh, rape is a, is a political tool. Uh, and mass rape, if you, if you read a book by Anthony Bevo called The Fall of Berlin, um, it was a, uh, it was a technique as well as, um, dominance performance. We, we won <laugh>, therefore we had to rape everybody. Uh, again, it’s, it’s, um, well known, and this is another example of it. So what I would like to ask Narges is how does she stay so strong?
Narges Mohamadi
In the beginning, during my first days of activism in the student movement at university, when I was just starting on this path, I’m not sure if I had known how difficult it would be whether I would have continued. But it seems that resistance gave me strength and energy over the years. The more I had to resist, the more it shaped me into the person I am today. I truly hope I can continue this journey with the same level of resilience until the very end.
Margaret Atwood
When these regimes collapse, they usually do.
Narges Mohammadi (01:40:34 -> 01:40:35)
Considering the situation in Iran, the path to victory and the fall of the dictatorship may take longer, but I am certain it will happen. The Islamic Republic has completely lost its acceptance among the people of Iran. Even many of its former supporters have distanced themselves from the regime today.
Narges Mohammadi
But listen, I want to say something. Many people, including myself, share the hope of seeing the fall of the Islamic Republic. However, I believe it is crucial to ensure a peaceful transition to democracy, equality, and freedom for Iran. For me, this transition must meet specific standards: it must be nonviolent and aimed at establishing democracy, freedom, and equality. While this is the next step, I believe it is very important as the fall of the dictator. We need to have a clear vision for this transition and start thinking about it now.
